Mel Bay's Harmonica Sessions | Interview: Frank De Rose - Dennis Carelli

This month we're offering a little different flavor of information for harmonica players. Often taken for granted, but not forgotten, the rhythm section of a blues band is the backbone that holds down a song's groove while singers are singing, guitars are wailing and harmonica players are soloing off into the far reaches of their musical expression. Specifically, we're going to look at harmonica players from the rhythm section: a bass guitar player and drummer's point of view. This month we sat down with one of the most experienced blues bass guitar players and blues bass instructors in the San Jose/San Francisco Bay Area, Frank De Rose to get his perspective on playing with harmonica players.

Frank, a veteran of the Bay Area blues scene, has played in a succession of blues bands with some of the area's top blues performers. This list includes guitar players such as Tommy Castro, John Garcia, Kenny "Blue" Ray, John Garcia, Mike Shermer and noted harmonica players Gary Smith and Mark Hummel. Gary describes Frank and his bass playing with the highest of accolades, "The foundation of any blues groove starts with a bass line and the bass player has to lay it down solid, straight, and steady and Frank is a modern master" Gary Smith.

Over the years Frank was asked to provide his bass playing skills to a long list of national touring blues performers. That list includes harmonica players R.J. Mischo, Snooky Prior, Curtis Salgado, Little John Chrisley and Andy Just as well as a long list of notable blues guitar players and singers: Nick Gravenites, Otis Rush, Luther Tucker, Chris Cain, Rusty Zinn, Jr. Watson, John Garcia, Jackie Payne, Larry Davis, Mississippi Johnny Waters and Johnny Adams. This wealth of experience is reflected in R.J. Mischo's comments when he says, "Frank is one of my favorites at backing up the harp. Frank knows the dynamics and feel [of the blues] that only comes from the experience of working with a multitude of blues players."

DC: Frank, thanks for taking the time to talk with HarmonicaSessions about harmonica players. I'll try to keep it short to minimize any harmonica "flashback" moments you may have. First-some basics. How long have you been playing the bass?

FD: Well, I'm getting to be an older man and it's getting hard to count [laughs], but I think it's pushing 38 years.

DC: From the beginning of your bass playing has it always been blues oriented, blues influenced?

FD: No, early on as a youngster I always liked the Rolling Stones so there was some blues influence there. But mostly in my high school years I played in a rock band that did originals. It was 1978 when I started playing the blues full time as a convert when I met Paul Durquette [harmonica] and Sid Morris [piano].

DC: Was that your first blues band with Paul and Sid?

FD: Yep, Paul Durquette and The Houserockers.

DC: Did you have a lot of background in listening to blues records and prior "wood shedding" or was that kind of an on-the-job learning experience?

FD: The first band started me on the whole "wood shedding" experience. I was sent lots of tapes and told which records to buy. That was when you could still easily buy vinyl records. Through that association I ended up meeting Gary Smith and people like Steve Gomes who was a bass player one time in the area and went on to play with John Lee Hooker; Bill Stuvey who was Rod Piazza's bass player; Jr. Watson, the guitar player who was playing with Rod Piazza. They all had a big influence on me. At that time they would tell stories about being on the road and spending time in every Goodwill shop and used record shop looking for records that they didn't have. Then buying them and learning the songs-learning everything about them. That's how they would build their repertoire.

DC: How would you characterize that style/influence from the bass players you mentioned-Steve and Bill? Was it a traditional style, pretty much what they heard on the record they learned and played? Or did they try and experiment and work up something off of that?

FD: In listening to the recordings they've done I think it's pretty much playing what is necessary for the original in a style that is traditional.

DC: When did you start playing with Gary Smith?

FD: Gary Smith. Well, Paul Durquette had left the band in the winter on 1979 and in the first couple of months of 1980 we had talked Gary into joining the band. Then we were Gary Smith and The Houserockers. We ended up playing the San Francisco Blues Festival. We were a favorite of Tom Mazzolini's at that time. We played several of the Harp shows that Mazzolini had promoted. Pretty fun times.

DC: From the very beginning you were playing with harmonica players.

FD: Right, playing with harmonica players.

DC: When you were in your "wood shedding" phase listening to all those blues songs what things guided you in approach to playing behind harmonica players? Any particular things that you reminded yourself when you were working on songs with the band that you needed to do or not do when you were in an ensemble with a harmonica?

FD: Well I realized when listening to Little Walter, early Sonny Boy II and early [blues] material that some of these harp players were listening to and wanting to play there was not an obvious bass guitar part. Some of the songs were just two guitars and harmonica with drums. And either the acoustic bass was poorly recorded and you could not hear it or in some cases there was no bass at all. So I looked chronologically through, coming forward, and listened to how bass players played in an album that was probably the most influential to me, Muddy Waters' live album called Live at Mr. Kelly's. Muddy at that point I think was in his prime, playing live in a 60's recording as far as modern blues goes. And the bass was so repetitive, so in the pocket, so simple, so hypnotic it really spoke to me and said this is what I need to do. So if I am going to play a Little Walter tune or I am going to play a Sonny Boy tune and there is no obvious bass part, then I am going to default to that expression that happened on that Muddy live album. Because Muddy had harmonica. He had a big band; piano, two guitars and harmonica. So the ensemble effect, the simple but repetitive bass line is the image that I use and default to all the time.

DC: What would you say are the things that are important/necessary to get from a harmonica player in the midst of playing a song or a set?

FD: What I do is try to be involved. There's a musical conversation that's taking place and I try to listen to how the harmonica player is playing. The tone is important to me because I can then hear his or her expression. I try to play within the emotional context that mimics what the harmonica player is doing. I try to latch onto their emotional content. I try to find if they want to start at a high level and play 24 or 36 bars just blowing hard... or, do they want to start out soft and sparse and build up. So based on what they are playing is how I mimic my bass playing in the background. If they are playing real sparse and soft then I keep my bass part sparse and soft. Then it gives them the opportunity to build and I can follow them up as they build their emotional content. Things like fills, I use a basic idea where I do a fill or a build up exiting measure 4 into measure 5. That's a pretty traditional place. And a harmonica player like Gary Smith, Mark Hummel, R.J. Mischo, thinking of some guys I've played with, they kind of have an expression right there that's always leading to measure 5 that's a buildup or a hard note that they are leaning on. So, I listen to what they are saying emotionally and I try to mimic it.

DC: Besides the musical direction that you get from the context of the harmonica playing, what signals do you need from the harmonica player in order to safely play without a "train wreck"?

FD: During the course of the song when the harmonica player picks up the harp to play, whether he is the lead singer or not, I'm looking for no extra body language or waving around or looking back at me. Don't look at me and do some body language unless it's a signal. If the harmonica player is working out, getting into it and putting on a show, stay forward and tell it to the audience. I'll follow you from the side or from behind. Extra arm or hand movements and jerking-I don't know if you want a break! I try to figure out their style and know when they are physically performing for the audience or when they want me to do something like break, go up or down in volume or something. I look for eye contact and because the harmonica player most times has two hands on the microphone, they have to talk to me with their eyes, their body, the movement of their shoulders, a turn, a head bob up and down for, "this is the end" or, "this is a break." I understand that sometimes when you are cupping that harp and you are trying to get that tone you may not want to let go for a hand signal. So you have to look at the other parts of the body for a signal and figure out what is to be done. After you play with a harmonica player for a while you'll know what their signals are. I think it would be good if a harp player stepped up on the stage in a jam session situation and say, "watch for my signals: I jerk from my shoulder... I stomp with my foot... I nod with my head... I'll look at you with my eyes." If there is someone who doesn't let go of his or her cupping.

DC: Very often they will say watch me for the breaks, but you don't know what to watch.

FD: That's right. A guitar player has the neck of their guitar, but a harp player doesn't necessarily want to let go of their cupping and the sound they're having if they are cupping hard and it changes everything. Don't do that. And the same if you are playing with a saxophone player. What are they going to signal with? They have two hands on their horn. The harmonica player should be clear on how they signal other band members. A quick little ten-second instruction about signals will eliminate a lot of possible confusion

DC: Your association with The School of The Blues you get to play with all level of players, what comes to mind when you think of some beginning harmonica players getting into early jams. What kind of trouble do they get themselves into?

FD: They try to do too much. And that's typical of all players. When it comes time for their solo, they are better served if they think two times through the progression. I'm going to make it simple, especially if it's a jam session situation. Keep it simple. Understate. Don't play everything you know in 24 bars. It becomes a mess. You've said nothing then cause you've been way too busy. I think a classic mistake that they all make when they come on stage they should adjust the amplifier tone and volume for what they need. And they need to avoid feedback and avoid just accepting that tone coming out of the harp amplifier. For the bass player your tone comes out of their fingers. Everybody's wind, everybody's mouth, everybody's cupping technique creates a different tone. And they should set the amp for their tone. It gives me the best chance of hearing what they are trying to play-and the audience as well. If they think they have more to say after 24 bars and if they are actually the singer at that point, they ought to go back and sing another verse and then go and play another solo. I think after 12 bars for a novice, beginner or intermediate level player, you think you got the world by the tail. Sometimes by the time you get to kicking off the third 12 bars, you may not really have a place to go. Sometimes those solos fizzle out. Two times through. If you want to do some more, sing a little bit and go back and play another solo starting with a whole new expression.

DC: What about tempo in terms of starting a song? If you are playing with experienced players such as R.J. [Mischo], Gary [Smith] or Mark [Hummel] I think you are pretty comfortable that you are going to get a good lead in to the tempo you need to set. But with the players who are not at that level and still gaining the necessary experience in leading a band, it seems that they often start off too fast or far too slow. Should they defer? Describe it to the rhythm section and let you and the drummer start the song?

FD: I think in some cases that 's a good choice: defer to the bass player and drummer. Say I want to do this song and if they [bass player and drummer] don't know it, tell them the artist and what song it might be similar to. Then the bass player and drummer may have an idea where that tempo needs to be. If the harp player wants to count it in, I think they need to use the same technique that I use and that Kevin Coggins [drummer] uses. When someone tells me to count it off and tells me the name of the song, I spend 10 or 15 seconds getting an image of that song in my mind and getting my body swaying and my foot tapping to where I think the beat is. Other people such as Kevin will look at me and get into the same grove. So I would hope the harmonica players would turn, look at us and starting moving into the tempo that they want. Spend some time thinking about the song. Spend some time thinking about a harp passage or the lyrics that they are going to sing and make sure it's in the right tempo. That also helps to calm down the adrenalin and the nerves that often times cause songs to be too fast.

DC: Do you count in a swing and a shuffle differently?

FD: I would count them all in the same way. I like the 1 [snaps fingers] 2 [snap fingers] 1 2 3 4 time coming in. It's four counts of four, but when you do a 1, then the next one is a silent count, then the 2, then a silent count. Then: 1, 2, 3, 4. When you do it that way, if there are pick up notes, then it becomes 1 [snaps fingers] 2 [snaps fingers] 1, 2, 3 ba-ba-ba-bop and there is a space for the pick up notes to happen. And we have lots of count lead in as opposed to a 1, 2, 3 ba-ba-ba-bop. There is not enough feeling of rhythm when the count happens that quickly.

DC: You did mention a few of the well known harp players you played with from the Bay Area such as Gary Smith, R.J. Mischo and Mark Hummel as well as other nationally and internationally known players, but you also probably had some experiences with some "train wrecks." Anything come to mind as one of the worst things to happen with regards to a harmonica player?

FD: [Laughs] It's hard to think about "train wrecks" cause you really need to forget them. You need to forget them as fast as they happen. Mistakes happen and everybody is going to make them-especially at student levels. I won't expect to go see a Thunderbirds show with mistakes in it. But I'm sure it happens. You just need to forget about them. So for me to conjure up an idea of a big "train wreck," I can't. Even though I know it happened.

DC: What if the harmonica player picks up the wrong harmonica, starts in a different key and then realizes the mistake? Would you switch to the key he is playing in? Or would you hold to the original key that he called for the song?

FD: My first default inclination is to hold the key. Yeah, this happens. You pick up the harp and in the dark of the stage you think you picked up an A and it's a G. And now they are in the wrong key. Or they picked it up and in thinking about the song or talking to the audience, they've turned it over and are now playing it upside down. So you got to hold the key in the background for a while. At least long enough for the harp player to realize that something has gone wrong and if he recognizes it, give him a chance to adjust to where you are. And then if you're not in the right place, they will tell you and you will jump. But picking up a wrong harp or blowing it upside down you got to wait to let them correct. If they told you a key and it's the wrong key, then they are going to tell you pretty quickly, within a bar or two, what key they want you in and then you have to jump with the guitar player. So default I hold and see what happens.

DC: And stay active, true for everyone on stage, stay as an active listener.

FD: [Laughs] That's right.

DC: What kind of signals do you as a bass player give to a drummer?

FD: I'll try to signal the drummer for the breaks. And even if I am playing with an experienced person, like Kevin who I've been playing with on and off since 1978, I don't take for granted that he is going to remember. And vice versa. If we are playing a song and I know there is a break part that I know is coming up, I turn around and look at him too to make sure that we are on the same page. Because if one of us is going to make a mistake and play through a break then if we both play through a break, it's not a mistake. All we did is change the arrangement. So I'll sometimes even shout out "break." I'll shout out "build up" or "fill." I'll wiggle my guitar neck, give it the up and down motion and use some body language. And in the background it's ok to shout "break" or "build up." Sometimes if I'm working with some one like Kevin, I'll shout out "hey" or "go" and he'll respond with a drum fill or build up with me at measure four or something.

DC: Yeah, at times I think harmonica players are reluctant to call out a break. But I've certainly seen that. R.J. [Mischo] on several occasions with his band as well as at jam sessions call out breaks. He backs away from his bullet mic and says, "break." Doesn't seem like a big deal

FD: No, big deal. James Brown yelled out, "Take it to the bridge." So I think it's OK in our kind of music.

DC: Yeah, at times I think harmonica players are reluctant to call out a break.

FD: Harp players, especially beginning and intermediate ones, would do well to think in the school of simple expression in their solos and to build on that. In a jam session where a harp player is called up to play, a harp player needs to know a few ways to communicate to what they want the background to be without getting too fussy about it. You need to know that from the bass point of view that bass players like me will default to a quarter note walk. I'm going to give you a quarter note heart beat or I'm going to give you a shuffle, bump-ba-bump-ba-bump-ba-bump feel. When you are just generically calling out a shuffle, I may not play a shuffle beat. If you count it really fast, I may resort to the quarter note to give it a softer, more flowing feel. So a harp player, unless they want something specific and it has to be specific, I think you ought to just say, "let's just play the blues in the key of G." If you use the word shuffle, you would expect the drummer to play a shuffle beat. To me I think you are better served saying, "let's play something that's a Chicago sound, a Muddy Waters' sound; I'll be playing the harp in the style of Little Walter; let's do a Jimmy Reed sound; let's do a Sonny Boy sound; let's do a Delta blues sound." With experienced players I think you have a better chance of creating that spontaneous activity as opposed to "do you know this specific song." Under the pressure of that 15 or 20 seconds up there with the band, you may draw a blank on somebody as we're trying to think through our catalogue of how many hundreds of songs we've learned and played in our lifetime. You would be better off saying, "play this in a Jimmy Reed style." And away we go. So the kind of instruction would be if you know you wanted a "box" sound which is Little Walter's "Everything is Going To Be All Right" which is also used by Freddy King and a bunch of guys. Just say that, "I'm going to play a tune and play the bass line like 'Everything is Going To Be All Right.'" Or, "play a jump tune, I want it to swing. Play it in a T-Bone Walker sound."

Then I'll know what to do and the drummer will know what to do. That bit of communication is pretty critical. And I think in a sit-in situation for a novice, beginner or intermediate player, you ought to strive for the spontaneosness that will happen with experienced players. At a rehearsal to be in a band, that's the time to get specific and put a record on and say, "this is the groove, this is the bass line, this is the guitar part, and this is the drum part I'm looking for. Let's play this song like this." Then that's the place to be specific.

DC: What I hear is a good bit of advise for harmonica players as they learn to play with more people is to expose themselves and have a pretty good understanding of the different styles/feel of the songs they play. They don't necessarily learn a bass line for a given song, but be able to say I want to play this song in a "Chicago style," or "Jimmy Reed style," etc. Or if they have a specific song they can reference, then they can use that song as reference. But even then you need to explain the given style. For example, if a harp player said they wanted to play "Rock Me Baby" a little more information is needed. Many artists in various styles from B.B. King and Paul Butterfield to Johnny Winter have covered that song.

FD: Yeah, that's right. What style do you want? Exactly, I'm going to default to playing a traditional sound. And there's even a version of "Rock Me Baby" that when the verse starts, you go to the IV chord and start singing. You don't do the long drawn out I chord.

I forget what version that is. Whether Muddy did it that way. I think Muddy did it that way and then the solos are 12 bar style so it becomes more like an 8 bar feel for the verse. So if someone says "Rock Me Baby" that's the first thing I'm thinking. So you know enough to play it like Muddy or are you going to do it more like B.B. where it's 12 bar all the way through. The idea thinking that blues is always a 12 bar shuffle is not a good concept to have in your mind.

DC: Agreed. A harmonica player who wants to play more and more and play with better people has to expand their knowledge of the different styles used throughout the blues so they can communicate with the other musicians in the band. And not just learn the words to a song or parts of the solo they are going to play.

FD: That's right. You got to be expand your background and know if you want to play in a Chicago style, West Coast style, William Clarke, Rod Piazza, etc. What sound are you playing? I want to know what kind of sound you want to achieve instead of a specific song

DC: Thanks Frank. I appreciate your time and insight from all your years of playing experience.

Next time we'll speak with drummer Kevin Coggins and continue this thought process of playing from the perspective of the band members.

Frank De Rose

"What the Band Wants" Series!