Kevin Coggins

"What the Band Wants" Series!

This month we continue our look at the rhythm section of a Blues band by discussing the band from the drummer's point of view. We sat down with Kevin Coggins, a San Francisco Bay area performer and drum instructor. Voted "Best Blues Drummer" in the San Francisco Bay area, Kevin's list of performing credits reads like a "who's who" of the Blues world-Albert King (with whom he has recorded), Otis Rush, Lowell Fulson, Pinetop Perkins, Robert Lockwood, Jr., Elvin Bishop, Boz Skaggs, Steve Freund, and harmonica players James Cotton, Charlie Musselwhite, Johnny Dyer, Mark Hummel and Gary Smith to name but a few.

Although best known for his work with Blues, Kevin is fluent and has taught in all major styles. He is a frequent guest teacher in schools where he works with both small and large ensembles. We're going to jump right to the meat of what our focus is this month-how harmonica players can work better with a drummer.

Dennis Carelli for HarmonicaSessions.com®: Once you got interested in the Blues style of music did you identify certain drummers that you listened to and used as a model for the style you wanted to play?

KC: As far as really getting into specific drummers I started doing that when I was twenty years old. I started taking drum lessons on my own. I didn't live with my parents any longer. I was responsible for myself and I wanted to become a better drummer. So I found a drum teacher and paid for lessons from my own pocket. I was playing, I guess you would say, semi-pro. I had a regular day job plus I played with various bands in the evenings. I got more into specific drummers at that time because my instructor would point me toward different individual drummers. And as I was playing more Blues I started listening to a lot of Chicago Blues because I played with Blues harmonica players. And they would say, hey, give me that Freddie Below thing. So I had to find out who specifically Freddie Below was. But in the same token as I listened to more and more Blues from Chicago, I listened to a lot of stuff on the Chess Records label; they had a cadre of musicians that played on the recordings with most of the bands. Whole bands didn't come in so much. They had an artist like Muddy Waters, or Bo Diddly or Howlin' Wolf. They had a producer at the session and the producer made sure they used mainly the same players on the recording. So Freddie Below was a big one. Odie Payne was a big one. So I got into more specific guys at that point.

DC: It sounds like you were playing in Blues bands with harmonica players early on?

KC: When I was nineteen I actually discovered Blues. A friend of mine with whom I was playing Top 40 and Rock music had been reading about guys like Jimmy Paige and [Eric] Clapton being heavily influenced by Blues. So he said, his name was Larry Kelly, we should start listening to Blues. He was very instrumental in getting me started in specifically playing Blues. So we started a Blues band. But the harmonica players we used would not necessarily get real specific in Blues harmonica. They were listening to all kinds of harmonica music. And they were adapting harmonica to just jam along with whatever song we were playing. So when I was twenty I met a harmonica player named David Wholehouse and he was really into Paul Butterfield and more harmonica specific music. We played with him for a while, gigging around. He introduced us to a guy named Andy Just. And Andy had been taking lessons I think from Gary Smith. So Andy was a revelation as far as a harmonica player. He was technically phenomenal. He had the ability to learn and copy very, very well the techniques and styles of guys like James Cotton, Little Walter, Paul Butterfield and other big harp players of the day. That's when I really started getting into the harmonica end of it in a very serious way.

DC: A harmonica player like Andy plays, sings, leads songs and thereby leads the band. Is there something different in the interaction you would have between a harmonica player singing and leading the band and a guitar player singing and leading the band?

KC: (Small laugh). I think the tendency with harmonica players is to learn songs in a very specific manner. They in turn ask drummers to play specific parts because harmonica players and the drummer are very interactive. So when a harmonica player is trying to get a drummer to play a specific song such as "Roller Coaster" by Little Walter they are going to ask for a very specific part to be played. So they ask you to play certain things. They say, "give me those build-ups like Freddie Below" or "get kind of busy like Odie Payne" or something like that. If you want to make them happy (laugh), then you're gonna really listen to the songs and realize, gee-whiz, I can't just jam along to this like I've done to a lot of Rock n' Roll songs-I've got to play a specific part.

DC: I understand what you are describing there. But do you need, as a drummer, to listen and know all those songs or does the harmonica player have task to explain to you what is to be played in the song? Is the onus on the drummer to know all those songs? Or is it on the harmonica player leading the band to describe what is to be played in the song?

KC: I'm going to give you an analogy here for cooking. You can eat something that you like and try to find the recipe. [You] Open the recipe book up and follow the recipe trying to make it so that it will look and taste just how you experienced it. Or you can call your Mom on the phone and say, "I really liked that apple pie. How did you make it?" If she will stay on the phone with you for an hour she might say, "peel the apples (laughs), make the dough..." So that 's kind of like a harmonica player saying, "OK, I like what you are doing there, but right there when I do this then you build it up. Or right when I do this, make this sound on the harmonica or give you this queue, then you do a drum roll. Or this" [mimics drum sounds] (Laughs). The responsibility, I think, if I want to play a song that a harmonica player is playing and he wants me to play it like how he learned it then I need to get the same exact recording. And I need to transcribe my part or learn my part so I know the drum part that was played along with the harmonica part he is playing. I see that as my responsibility. It's not the responsibility of the bandleader to explain to me how to play a song. The way it should be done is he should either give me music or he should give me a recording and it's my responsibility to take that music and learn it or take the recording and learn it. That's my responsibility.

DC: That would be in the context of a group that you regularly play with, but what if you were sitting in for a gig or playing at a jam session. In the jam session environment you don't know what song they are going to play or what version of the song they want to play. For example, they might want to play "Rock Me Baby." Whose version? B.B. King? Paul Butterfield? How much responsibility does the person have leading the song when you as a drummer don't play with them regularly?

KC: I know what you're asking me. When an individual goes to a jam session that person has no responsibility other than to show up and play, because that's what a jam session is. Come as you are and play. Someone who is very conscientious will be practicing and they are going to be listening to stuff and whatnot. My responsibility in being a drummer in a house band at a jam session is to try to provide as good of a foundation as possible for all the individuals who want to come up and jam. Taking that responsibility, if someone offered me a gig as a drummer in a jazz band that is going to host a jam night on a weekly basis then I need to brush up on all the standards. All the stuff that I figure someone is gong to want to come in and play. And all the styles prevalent in jazz, like I need to brush up a little bit on my swing, a little bit on my bop, a little bit on my Latin grooves. I tend to be a conscientious individual in that way. As a Blues drummer when I am going to do a jam session, a lot of times I'll make sure I'm listening to something like a Chess Records compilation or some Albert King. Just some different stuff so that I can help facilitate the individuals who come in and want to play a certain kind of music.

DC: Besides the general description of the song, 'We are going to do this sing in this key. A shuffle kind of rhythm, starting on the V chord' what other kind of information or signals do you need from am harmonica player so that you and the band can safely play without a "train wreck"?

KC: Well (laughs), you are asking a person who has hosted a jam session, a serious Blues jam session, for over six years and who has been playing Blues for over thirty years. So mostly what I need from someone is what the song is supposed to sound like (laughs). What is the name of the song? Are you going to play like a shuffle or whatever? Are you gong to count it off or do you want me to count it off? The standard specific information an instrumentalist should give to a drummer is, assuming that they don't know a huge repertoire of music, is first of all what style. What type of a beat. Is it a twelve/eight kind of like a ballad? Or slow Blues? So what type of a beat and what tempo. And what style. Do you want it to fell like a real kind of a swingy thing? Or do you want it kind of straight? And then where in the form of the song are you going to start? So you are going to start on the V [chord]. Are you going to start at the top of the form [from the I chord]? Basically just that. And then you just have to use your wits and whatever cumulative experience you have. That's what a drummer needs to know to start the song along with everybody else and have it get off to a good start.

DC: Do you prefer to count the band into a song or does it matter?

KC: That's a funny question because even if I'm paying with a beginner, the person who is the feature player of the song, such as a harmonica player who comes up and wants to play a song, then I would tend to say give me the tempo and I'll start it off. At least that way I know that the band will get started on time. At the same time. But if they give me a tempo and then they start to play and I realize that they didn't necessarily get the tempo correct and might need it a little bit slower or a little bit faster, then generally I will look at the guys in the band and I will signal to them that I'm going to adjust the tempo and the band will pick up on it.

DC: Do you find yourself in the situation often where you are interacting with the bass player a lot to keep it together when there is a less experienced player in the jam?

KC: If the bass player is an experienced person then I will communicate with them more, and often times that communication will be in the form of nuance. In other words, I will adjust my groove a little bit, play a little bit ahead of the beat or behind the beat and the experienced bass player will pick up on it and make that adjustment right away. If they are less experienced, then they might not know what to do even if I tell them. For example, if I say "OK, speed it up a little bit," they might not know what I mean by "a little bit." So that entirely depends on the experience of the bass player and their intuitive sense. Because it's that intuitive sense in a jam session that is critically important. It's not that you have to be very intuitive, but the more intuitive you are the better you are going to able to make adjustments for the featured player such as the harmonica player.

DC: Do you count in a shuffle and a swing in the same way such as 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 4 or do you try to articulate the rhythm?

KC: I'm going to try and indicate what style and attitude I am going to associate with the groove. In other words, I'm not going to say 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 4 [straight ahead count]. I might go 1 [snaps finger with a swing feel] 2[snaps finger with a swing feel]. I might make an inference with my voice to give people an indication if I this to feel a little bit sassy or if I want it to feel a little funky, or whatever.

DC: With your association with the School of The Blues you have had occasion to play with all levels of players, from very experience performers to people just getting on stage for the first time. What kind of trouble have you seen with beginning harmonica players get themselves into when they get on stage?

KC: If they are not very experienced they might be very nervous and you can have all kinds of things associated with nervousness. They might say "I'm going to start on the V [chord]," and they may start on the I [chord]. They might say, "I'm going to count it off," and they might make a mistake in the tempo.

DC: In that context do you try to keep the song going and move past any mistakes?

KC: Yeah, we try to give them a real-time experience of performance. So if they start something and they get into trouble right at the beginning, then most likely we will stop. We want them to have a positive experience. So if you get into trouble once you've played through the head a couple of times and maybe they are in the solo section, we're just gonna keep on going. That's part of he experience of being at a live jam session. It's not a good thing to coddle the player. If we have trouble right at the beginning we will probably stop and get it back on track.

DC: Yeah, part of the jam experience for anyone who gets up to play is to recognize what they need to do to keep up their end of musical bargain.

KC: Yeah. I'll say this. There is an age old saying that the show must go on. That's kind of the thing. Once you get on the stage, then it's your responsibility to provide the entertainment as part of the reason everyone is up there.

DC: How important is it for you, the drummer, to hear the harmonica player? Often, particularly in jams the harmonica player is playing through an amp in front the drummer or to the side of the drummer and you may or may not hear it. Is that important to you?

KC: (Laughs) Let me say this. Most harmonica players, regardless of where there amp is, the drummer is going to hear it because they have a tendency to play a little too loud as opposed to a little too soft. It's important for me to hear the harmonica player provided that they are the featured instrumentalist on that song, because I want to react to their playing. It's like a conversation. It's important for me to hear the words of the person talking to me so that when they have something to say I can reply in a manner that's going to further the communication. And that's how I play my instrument with other players. I need to be able to react and respond.

DC: It makes perfect sense to me. It seems all too often harmonica players, because of the way they are situated on stage or the way they think about their instrument, take the drums for granted. They might be listening to the bass because of the chord changes, but the drummer is just there.

KC: Yeah, a less experienced musician doesn't have a learned capacity for hearing and managing their own part and likewise everyone else in the band. When I'm playing a song in a band, I'm listening to the sound of the music inclusive of all the players. Then I can hear specifically each individual's part. But a novice is going to hear more of his or her own part and not be able to really play along with everyone else in the band. They want a reference point and then they listen to themselves. As they can relax more and can hear more of he music, then they can adjust.

DC: Thinking of beginning and intermediate level harmonica players and the trials and tribulations as they go through in their growth process and gain experience playing with a band. Do you think, from what you have seen, that there is a different from what a guitar player would experience?

KC: I don't think so. I think, here again, it depends on the individual. I think when a person is first learning the head of a song, they listen to it over and over and over and they are going to hear just their instrument's part. As they play it more and more then they start hearing what else is going on around it. But I think people have a tendency to learn by just hearing their own part and maybe a reference part. I think they listen to the basic melody. They're not listening necessarily to the harmony, the rhythm, the drum part, the harmony of what the bass player is playing and the rhythm guitar player comping the chord changes. It's pretty much the same. I don't think it's specific to each instrument.

DC: Kevin thanks so much for taking the time to share your experience and drummer's point of view. We appreciate hearing from such an experienced player and getting a view of the band from the drummer's seat.